Google is Pulling YouTube From The Fire TV

Well, the fight between Google and Amazon just took a new step today. As of today, Google is pulling all YouTube apps from the Echo Show and the Fire TV. This is not the first time Google has pulled a YouTube app from an Amazon device. Earlier this year Google pulled the YouTube app from the Echo Show. Last week though the YouTube app returned to the Echo show but Google didn’t release that app it came from Amazon and Google didn’t learn about it until they saw it in the press according to TechCrunch.

Google is not stopping at removing YouTube app from Amazon devices, they are also pulling their Nest system from the Amazon online store. This means you will no longer be able to buy Nest products on Amazon soon.

The Echo Show app will stop working today and the Fire TV version will stop working January 1st 2018. Fire TV owners will start seeing warnings showing up today notifying them that the app will be pulled on January 1st 2018.

Google has for some time offered limited versions of the YouTube app on the Fire TV. Google also left the Fire TV off the list of streaming players to be supported by YouTube TV in what is likely a continuation of their fight with Amazon. The lack of YouTube and YouTube TV will leave the Fire TV short a major app that other devices like Roku, Apple TV, and Android TV all offer.

Source: Tech Crunch

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94 Responses to Google is Pulling YouTube From The Fire TV

  1. Chris Torres December 5, 2017 at 2:49 pm #

    That’s crap. Well, it’s YouTube and Amazon’s loss.

    • OneOfOne December 5, 2017 at 3:58 pm #

      this comment makes no sense

    • Ryan Ot December 5, 2017 at 4:06 pm #

      Google loses more than Amazon. I for one wont pull out my phone to cast or airplay it to the AFTV.

      • Lynnneez December 5, 2017 at 4:22 pm #

        Ditto – I would likely use Youtube less. I wont watch any less FireTV in general, but I might rethink what I need to see on Youtube and how often if I have to use a second device to watch it. I prefer to watch on the big screen, so I use Youtube very little from my phone alone, I would want to cast it or not watch it at all…most likely I will just use it on my tablet, but if its pulled there, Id cut back my Youtube usage due to lack of convenience.

      • Lowspark December 5, 2017 at 4:42 pm #

        I will probably pick up another Nvidia Shield TV and ditch my 2nd Gen Fire TV. I can’t stand the ad banner now that it’s been moved from the top of the screen, and losing YouTube will push me to make the move. I know what I’m putting on my Christmas list.

  2. Scott Knipfing December 5, 2017 at 2:53 pm #

    I will no sleep over this. You Tube does nothing for me.

    • OneOfOne December 5, 2017 at 4:00 pm #

      good thing you posted then.

  3. Loren Kruse December 5, 2017 at 2:54 pm #

    No problem. You can access Youtube via Amazon’s Silk browser.

    • Craig Smith December 5, 2017 at 3:01 pm #

      Hope Google doesn’t block Silk access somehow?

    • Chris K. December 5, 2017 at 3:14 pm #

      Works fine in Naked Browser too – which is a much better option (at least on Fire tablets) than Silk.

  4. Joe in Virginia December 5, 2017 at 2:55 pm #

    Just use the browser.

    • Lowspark December 5, 2017 at 4:44 pm #

      I don’t think that’s a very good work around. Sure it will work, but it’s a bit cumbersome when your used to using an app. Just my $.02

  5. Jimmy757 December 5, 2017 at 2:56 pm #

    Amazon is making a very big mistake removing utube its not gonna hurt youtube at all

    • Craig Smith December 5, 2017 at 3:00 pm #

      I’m sure it’s more like Google is removing YouTube from the Fire TV because Amazon tried to circumvent YouTube access on the Echo Show by using Silk.

    • Lynnneez December 5, 2017 at 3:01 pm #

      Amazon isn’t removing Youtube. Google is removing it. The title of this article is after all “Google is Pulling YouTube From The Fire TV.”

      • NashGuy December 5, 2017 at 4:21 pm #

        Yes, after having YouTube available on Fire devices for years, Google has gotten sick of Amazon’s tactics and they’re dishing it back at them. Amazon has never put an Amazon Video app on the Google Play Store for Android TV devices, although they did recently relent and put that app on the GP Store for Android mobile devices but you STILL can’t use that app with Chromecast. (They do make it available directly on certain Android TV devices if, I imagine, those manufacturers pay Amazon for the privilege.) Google isn’t perfect (what giant tech corp is?), but it has a track record of being more open about supporting other hardware. Want to use Google’s app and services on an iPhone, Apple TV, or Roku? Fine. Meanwhile, Amazon is much more restrictive about where they’ll put their apps — because they’d rather you just buy their own Fire and Echo devices — and when they do support non-Amazon hardware, the app isn’t as good. Look at the ongoing drama about an Amazon Video app coming to Apple TV. It’s *still* not here…

  6. Lynnneez December 5, 2017 at 3:00 pm #

    Since there wasn’t really an actual YouTube app on Amazon products, but just various apps that point back to the browser – are all those going to be blocked?

    Good luck to Youtube TV without being on Fire TV. I don’t know why a company that can actually make products that could potentially be competitive manages to make such poor decisions about marketing, product support and placement. I can barely recall any of their physical products let alone know which ones still exist and I am not the only one. I actually follow cord cutting and technology news in general yet I couldn’t reliably tell you if there is still such a thing as their supposed Google TV or maybe it was Android TV thingy box whatever it was…who knows except the 100 people who bought one. I know a little more about the Amazon Echo clone they finally put out, but I can’t remember the name of it for the life of me…I know they also had glasses and recently some Gear VR clone…notice how the only thing I recall about their product line is the name of the existing products they are copying. Other than that I know they have gmail and google maps and that’s about it for the average person. They should think about that a bit more…

    • OneOfOne December 5, 2017 at 3:57 pm #

      probably because they dont want amazon competing with them. and if you think they are going to be hurt by not having junk amazon devices using their services you are nuts.

      • Lynnneez December 5, 2017 at 4:17 pm #

        I am all for having additional services. Competition makes it better for all of us. But honestly, if you can believe that struggling Youtube TV doesn’t need the partnership of all three of the top three setup boxes, you are crazy. Those so called junky Amazon products outsell Google’s products so I would rethink your definition of junky. I don’t recall millions of Android TVs being sold this Black Friday, let alone whatever they call their Echo competitor.

        As for you YouTube the free service, I’m sure it makes perfect business sense to exclude your product from one the top 3 streaming partners AKA Amazon. They don’t need each other, but both are limiting themselves by not coming to an agreement.

        • Bryan December 5, 2017 at 4:33 pm #

          I too like like content agnostic device…but even Roku is hinting they may start to compete here too starting with Roku Channel. You underestimate Android TV even if you are being sarcastic with the “100 people who bought one” remark. Almost every single smart Sony TV sold these days has Android TV built-in. Worldwide shipments of all Android TV devices, including STBs and smart
          televisions, are projected to increase from 7.6 million in 2016 to 40.1
          million in 2021.Yea, currently Amazon may outsell the competition…but a lot of people would have zero interest in a device once they find out it is not capable of showing YouTube videos.

    • Marc H December 6, 2017 at 12:37 am #

      A lot of people aren’t going to keep using a device that doesn’t have youtube. Forget youtube TV for now.

    • Rocksleeper December 6, 2017 at 11:28 am #

      They also do Android.. Which is the majority of the cell phone and tablet market..which an “average person” usually has one device running it. Including if you have an Amazon Fire Tablet. Amazon did make their own OS for their tablets, they borrowed Google’s.

      I’m not a fan of this rivalry, I wish they would work together. But I think both will be fine without the other’s cooperation.

  7. Keith Foster December 5, 2017 at 3:06 pm #

    Again this is why I love content agnostic players like Roku.

    • Kal December 5, 2017 at 5:28 pm #

      Agreed, although don’t forget that Roku went for years without the YouTube app. They had it when they first launched (around 2010, I think), then it got pulled for a few years.

      • vnazario December 5, 2017 at 7:35 pm #

        Just want to make a correction. Roku initially had a YT channel but it was made by a private developer not Google. Google discovered this and forced Roku to have it removed. Other 3rd party YT players showed up like 1080 Showcase, Raterix and then a side load channel MyVideoBuzz. Other Roku work-a-rounds were the YT channel plug-in within PLEX and PLAYON. When Roku became popular enough that Google saw an opportunity to monetize on this platform then an official channel was created.

        • jjimg1474 December 11, 2017 at 2:38 pm #

          My computer was and still is my favorite way to watch YouTube. A few years ago, when I first got my Roku, I used one of the 3rd party work arounds to watch it on TV. I don’t think that I have ever used (my second favorite media player) Fire TV to watch YouTube.

    • TechSupport December 5, 2017 at 5:40 pm #

      I hate Roku’s interface and painfully slow updates to Roku TV’s.

    • Fred Koot December 5, 2017 at 7:53 pm #

      But they aren’t file agnostic, still no mpeg 2 support

      • b_e_q December 6, 2017 at 4:15 am #

        FWIW the Roku TV’s support MPEG-2 (since they have to support ATSC 1.0 OTA).

        The 4K Roku players support h.265 and VP9, which the HD players don’t.

        The 4K Roku TV’s support all…

        • David Batten December 6, 2017 at 8:36 am #

          Actually the Roku TV’s don’t have to support MPEG2 to be able to display OTA. It can have a traditional TV tuner and flip to another input the same as changing HDMI inputs. No decoding would be required.
          I don’t know which way a Roku TV shows OTA, but I suspect with a traditional tuner and not by decoding the MPEG2 video.

          • Keith Foster December 6, 2017 at 10:54 am #

            The decoding is in the hardware. I have been able to use my HDhomerun tuner is the Roku media player channel. It’s slow, buggy, and not very user friendly, but it works. regardless the best way for me to watch OTA is using the “Antenna” channel on the grid.

          • b_e_q December 6, 2017 at 7:37 pm #

            Interesting thanks, but wouldn’t the live TV pause/buffering feature require decoding support?

            Regardless, the Roku TV does support MPEG-2 decoding from USB and network files, as Keith Foster also found. I assume Roku threw it in since they’ve already had to pay the license?

          • Keith Foster December 7, 2017 at 9:38 am #

            Honestly I assume TCL, Sharp, Insignia, and all other “Roku” TVs the MPEG2 license was paid for by the manufacture. I base the on the fact in order to be considered a TV at all it has to have a ATSC tuner that decodes if not it’s just a display. Basically since it has a tuner it decodes regardless.

            I played a MPEG2 file off my PLEX server and there was no trascoding and showed direct play on the server side. I think ROKUs next big step should be an OTA DVR something like the AirTV.

      • Keith Foster December 6, 2017 at 10:52 am #

        Agree, this is still a big miss in my opinion. The line forever was they didn’t want to pay the licencing fee, but that’s basically pennies now. I for one would pay a couple of bucks to unlock it so I could have a HDhomerun app. I would be interested to see if HDhomerun built an app if it would run on a ROKU TV. I think it would since I can see my HDHR tuner under the media player app.

  8. Craig Smith December 5, 2017 at 3:07 pm #

    This is bad, guys? I mean? Fire TV’s are pretty popular devices…and losing YouTube? A major app that it’s had since launch? What Smart TV device doesn’t have YouTube?! It’s a basic staple app. This is not good. Looks like Google needs to be offering up $15-$20 deals on Chromecast dongles to Fire TV customers or something? I hope Amazon and Google can work out there crap? But this has been brewing for quite a while now and I doubt it happens overnight. Google doesn’t like Amazon using Android without Play Services. That’s the crux of the biscuit and everything else extends out from there.

    • Chris K. December 5, 2017 at 3:19 pm #

      Google has turned into the new Microsoft.

      Remember 15 years ago when most of the free world (pretty much everyone except the US) told Microsoft where they could shove their Windows Explorer/Internet Explorer forced integration? Google is doing the same thing right now with Play Services. Their iOS apps make it pretty obvious that Play Services aren’t some how “required” to allow end users to access their Drives, Emails, etc. Forcing integration with Play Services on Android is “because we can” at the least, and “because we’re trying to collect and sell everything about you we possibly can” at the worst.

      Love their individual products, but damned if I trust Google as a whole.

      • Craig Smith December 5, 2017 at 3:24 pm #

        I wish Google would have never purchased YouTube and YouTube remain a wholly-owned platform agnostic company. But yeah. Play Services is Google’s proprietary trojan-horse to the free and open Android. Sure! The OS is free. But if you want MAPS and Push Notifications? Then you’ll be using Play Services, so we can track you.

        • OneOfOne December 5, 2017 at 4:00 pm #

          grow up. google owns android and it owns youtube. if amazon doesnt want to follow the rules then they can do without. sort of like the internet telling aol users to fuck off with their idiotic behavior before aol died.

          • Craig Smith December 5, 2017 at 4:14 pm #

            Me grow up? I’m not the one who is about to screw YouTube Fire TV users come January 1’st. Tell them to grow up, bud! Not me! Don’t you ever freaking tell me to grow up, especially in the middle of this corporate childishness! Who the heck do you think you are Muther-F!?!?!?!??!

          • Marc H December 6, 2017 at 12:55 am #

            When Amazon starts offering there products then they can come back until then Amazon deserves this.

          • Lynnneez December 5, 2017 at 4:32 pm #

            Yeah cus Amazon products are on such a downward trajectory right now…not at all like Android TV and whatever the Google Echo is called…

            If Google had any business sense left, they would compromise on their need to push Google Play onto everyone. Amazon should compromise a bit too, but to what extent depends only on how important Google tools are to their success. So far the lack of it has not hindered their success AT ALL with Fire Tablets, Fire TV or Echo related products, despite all the bitching I have heard about the lack of Google Play on their devices.

      • dman December 6, 2017 at 1:28 pm #

        I don’t see Google’s move in this particular case as being anti-competitive… however, I do see Amazon’s move (of preventing the sale of Chromecast and Home in their store) as being anti-competitive. Google’s response in this case is somewhat of a bargaining chip.

  9. georgeshiflett December 5, 2017 at 3:10 pm #

    well maybe its time we all boycott google, i’m dropping all google apps from my phone

    • Craig Smith December 5, 2017 at 3:12 pm #

      How far ya going, if you have an Android phone? Remove Google Play Services entirely?

      • Joseph ewing December 5, 2017 at 3:13 pm #

        Or he actual Android OS?

    • OneOfOne December 5, 2017 at 3:58 pm #

      how are you going to do that? youre not very bright.

    • Marc H December 6, 2017 at 1:18 am #

      Why would we boycott them?

    • Rocksleeper December 6, 2017 at 11:58 am #

      If you have an iPhone… Then I doubt you have many to begin with. If you have android… Then your whole phone is a Google app, and you need to destroy it. Either way… Your boycott isn’t going far by “dropping Google apps from your phone”.

  10. SpideyRules December 5, 2017 at 3:23 pm #

    They’re actively forcing the uninstallation of the app? That has to violate some TOS somewhere…

    • OneOfOne December 5, 2017 at 3:57 pm #

      since they own android and youtube I doubt it.

  11. analyzethis December 5, 2017 at 3:35 pm #

    It’s not like this is some isolated event. Amazon won’t sell Chromecast or an Apple TV either.

    Both companies have their own side to the story.

  12. Gforce1963 December 5, 2017 at 3:44 pm #


    Wait…Wait…..can Google block us from installing the Amazon app on android phones??? App war!!

  13. Herman222 December 5, 2017 at 4:45 pm #

    Let’s see… Google has a beef with Amazon regarding YouTube and FireTV. Apple has a beef with Amazon regarding Prime Video and AppleTV. Hmmmm. methinks Amazon is the problem.

    • Chris K. December 5, 2017 at 4:52 pm #

      Amazon, Google, and Roku have beefs with Apple regarding iTunes. I’m not following your point.

      Amazon is paying significant licensing and development costs for Prime Video content and sell digital media through their stores. Google and Apple run competing stores for the same digital media. I have no problem with each of those companies restricting their internal stores to their own hardware.

      YouTube is different. Google doesn’t pay creators for YouTube content. It’s free. It’s the kind of thing the internet was designed to facilitate. Withholding it from Apple and Amazon devices is trying to doubly monetize a free resource, and ultimately is an admission that Play Books/Movies/Music is getting its butt kicked by Amazon Digital/Kindle and iTunes.

      • TechSupport December 5, 2017 at 5:39 pm #

        Exactly. This is simply a move out of fear. Well Google is going to regret it in the long run.

      • Marc H December 6, 2017 at 12:39 am #

        What is their issue with itunes?

    • TechSupport December 5, 2017 at 5:37 pm #

      No I think everyone is afraid of Amazon. I don’t think it is any more complicated than that.

      • Marc H December 6, 2017 at 12:40 am #

        Maybe Amazon will create their own video hosting service.

  14. Malignar December 5, 2017 at 4:47 pm #

    Both companies should be held accountable for acting like children.

    Siderant: Everything I’ve ever owned from Amazon has turned out to be the worst of that type of product. I have no idea how people are finding satisfaction with their products. I still buy non Amazon made items from Amazon but their electronics have been terrible.

    • TechSupport December 5, 2017 at 5:33 pm #

      What has Amazon done wrong here? Please tell.

      • David Batten December 5, 2017 at 7:38 pm #

        I can think of two things:
        Violated the rules of Android OS use by not including/blocking Google Play services
        Not releasing and blocking Amazon Video on Android TV devices.

        I know for a fact that Amazon blocked every attempt from 3rd party apps from playing videos on the NVidia Shield. That is until NVidia workout some kind of deal with Amazon. Still don’t have Amazon Video on the Mi Box.

        • TechSupport December 6, 2017 at 10:03 am #

          “I know for a fact”…that is funny.

          • David Batten December 6, 2017 at 10:14 am #

            Did you have a 2015 NVidia Shield and spend time attempting to get/keep Amazon Video working correctly. Most likely not.
            Amazon blocked every ports of the Amazon Video app from Sony’s Smart TV running Android TV. They all worked for a short time and were then blocked by Amazon.

            In fact… Can you dispute my statement in any way with actual facts?

          • TechSupport December 6, 2017 at 11:24 am #

            I just laugh whenever I hear “I know for a fact”. It is too funny.

        • ludist210 December 6, 2017 at 3:02 pm #

          “Violated the rules of Android OS use by not including/blocking Google Play services”

          That’s basically what it comes down to, and that’s why you can’t cast Prime Video to Chromecast or other Cast-enabled devices. All Amazon has to do is allow it, but that would also mean the Play Store would be an option for Fire devices, which they don’t want because they get no revenue for it (which is hilarious because of the Amazon App Store having to be sideloaded on Android devices and all). Even more funny is the Fire OS wouldn’t exist AT ALL if it weren’t for Android (Fire OS 5 is based on Android 5.0).

          A lot of people on here are quick to blame Google for this, but in reality, this is on Amazon.

  15. vnazario December 5, 2017 at 4:58 pm #

    I wouldn’t be too worried about this. I’m sure there will be a way to side load either the official YT apk or at a bare minimum a number of 3rd party YT player/downloaders so you can watch YT on an unsupported device. This brings me back to a time where YT was not available for Roku yet there were other methods to watch YT on Roku despite Google not allowing or providing an app for that platform.

    If you can use PLEX on the FireTV, you can use the YT Plex channel plug-in. Side load the *.apk using Apps2Fire app or Dropbox and ESFileExplorer. These are just some tips that come to mind. Hope this information helps.

    • Jared Cheeseman December 5, 2017 at 5:11 pm #


  16. Jared Cheeseman December 5, 2017 at 4:58 pm #

    i have a roku and will have a fire tv in 2 days

  17. Jared Cheeseman December 5, 2017 at 4:59 pm #


  18. TechSupport December 5, 2017 at 5:32 pm #

    I guess I will stop using youtube then. I have a Roku TV and a Fire TV. I prefer the Fire TV so I guess I will do without YouTube.

    • Marc H December 6, 2017 at 1:16 am #

      Guess who this will hurt more going into Christmas. A lot of people watch youtube, they’ll return their devices once they realize its not on there. I have an amazon device, google device and roku device, I follow the content not the company.

      • TechSupport December 6, 2017 at 9:56 am #

        That is fine. It is my opinion just like yours is your opinion. I will choose to stick to Amazon. There are ways to watch YouTube videos without an official YouTube app.

        • DON December 6, 2017 at 10:55 am #

          I have roku’s and fire tv’s in my house so this will not affect me. You said you have a Roku TV so you do not have to go w/o youtube either.

          • TechSupport December 6, 2017 at 11:26 am #

            I hate the Roku TV’s. Soooooooooooo slow on sending the updates to them. I have had it with Roku.

  19. Summer Lindsey December 5, 2017 at 5:51 pm #

    That’s why I have a chrome cast and Roku tv’s ,and Nvidia shield to fall back on until google gets its act together.

  20. SmackMacDougal December 5, 2017 at 5:56 pm #

    When does Google merge with Wal-mart?

  21. PCJunkie56 December 5, 2017 at 6:39 pm #

    Hopefully they will continue to allow you to “Cast” to your FireTV devices from Android Phones and Tablets. I guess we’ll soon find out!

    Why would Google punish “Users” of the Youtube Application is just plain shortsighted if you ask me. If you have a Beef with Amazon, sit down and work it out ! Don’t punish all of your Google Customers.

    Thats kind of like kicking your own dog when you get mad at your next door neighbor. What the heck are these guys thinking???

  22. Celtics_Junkie December 5, 2017 at 8:01 pm #

    To anyone who thinks Google is being a bully in doing this, remember it’s Amazon that blocks the sale of Chromecast and Google Home in their store to boost the sale Amazon’s own devices. Now that Amazon needs a Google product to help their own bottom line, they think it’s unfair that Google isn’t playing along… Sleazy on the part of Amazon and I applaud Google for what they are doing. Sometimes you gotta play hardball and I would do the exact same thing.

    • Marc H December 6, 2017 at 12:41 am #

      Glad I didn’t buy an amazon tv, youtube is pretty key for me. I use it more than any other channel.

  23. Scott Shell December 5, 2017 at 8:40 pm #

    The real sad part is that YouTube app on the Fire TV is better than the one on my Nvidia Shield.

  24. Dogman December 5, 2017 at 9:11 pm #

    Oh boo hoo – I’m taking my app and going home! Grow up Google!

  25. Rlee December 5, 2017 at 10:14 pm #

    Who needs em…

  26. Teddy G December 6, 2017 at 12:54 am #

    Couldn’t it still be sideloaded by installing the Google play store services on the FireTV? I was able to do it earlier this week on a 8 inch Fire Tablet for a friend. Just takes downloading four apks and the full Google Play Store is available on a Fire Tablet. I’m going to try it tomorrow on my 2nd Gen FireTV box and see if it works.

    • Marc H December 6, 2017 at 1:17 am #

      Well the typical user isn’t going to do that, they don’t care if a few thousand people do it.

      • Teddy G December 6, 2017 at 1:18 am #

        They probably will, all they have to do is watch a Youtube video on how to do it 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

    • Jenna Alis Saunders December 6, 2017 at 2:51 am #

      just make sure you can unroot after you install services and the play store as well as a few of the other google apps then those apps will run fine. just do not open play store or anything else while rooted or it will stop many apps from being seen legit

      • Teddy G December 6, 2017 at 10:21 am #

        I have an old Fire Stick with Alexa I can try it on before attempting it on my FireTV box. I’m not using it, and it will be a fun learning challenge. Thanks for the info!

  27. [email protected] Tcblimo1 December 6, 2017 at 1:29 pm #

    Guess I will just delete YouTube app today

  28. Respected Citizen December 6, 2017 at 7:47 pm #

    I just uninstalled the Youtube app. The regular full version of Youtube on the Silk browser is better anyway.

  29. Vegas Steve December 7, 2017 at 12:46 am #

    Fire TV never had a YouTube ‘app’, from what I’ve read. It had something that Amazon developed that looked like the YouTube app, but it was a browser based viewer. So if it’s browser-like based, how can Google pull it?

  30. President Bone Spur December 7, 2017 at 6:19 pm #

    If you thought the war between the networks and cable companied were bad. Just wait to the app providers go full bore.In about 5 years you will only be able to get Disney (Star Wars movies, Marvel stuff, Freform TV, ABC, Espn and Fox sports content form their own app. Same for CBS/Viacom/Showtime and Sony. They each will cost $35 per month or more. But hey at least we will get DVR service

  31. Cooper McChester December 10, 2017 at 12:59 am #

    Anyone who is worried about this, do what Aaron Rodgers said to do. RELAX.. The great thing about the Fire Tv is it is Android based and someone will come out with a solution.. AND it has already been done…

  32. Mark Hall December 11, 2017 at 12:58 pm #

    The real loser here is google. Dats alot of people without dat app. (not sure how many)

  33. Vegas Steve December 12, 2017 at 2:10 pm #

    Hey, as an added ‘bonus’, all my NON fire devices just got a mandatory youtube update that cleared my credentials and required a new login.

    It’s like two little kids fighting, there’s room for both, how ridiculous.